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It's weird that one of the reasons that you endorse AWS is that you had regular meetings with your account manager but then you regret premium support which is the whole reason you had regular meetings with your account manager.

googlers in their infinite wisdom have built a startup ecosystem for gcp that assigns "startups" to entry level new hires who are scrambling to figure out how to be managers of accounts while learning how to talk to humans, because googlers are generally not used to interacting with humans, just code, and that is the result of the programmatic hiring/screening process. each newly hired 20-something is also assigned 3,000 gcp accounts to manage.

what is the engineering used to determine a weak startup from a growing company you ask? well....googlers again use random numbers not logic (human interaction avoidance firewall) to determine that and set the floor at $30M "publicly declared investment capital". so what happens when you the gcp architect consultant hired to help this successful startup productionalize their gcp infra but their last round was private? google tells the soon to be $100M success company they are not real yet.....so they go get their virtual cpu,ram,disk from aws who knows how to treat customers right by being able to talk to humans by hiring account managers who pick up the phone and invite you to lunch to talk about your successful startup growing on aws. googlers are the biggest risk factor to the far superior gcp infrastructure for any business, startup or fortune 10.

having used gcp, i don’t think anything they do is far superior

If you spend enough (or they think you'll spend enough), you'll get an account manager without the premium support contract, especially early in the onboarding

Or if you’re a newish startup who they hope will eventually spend enough to justify it.

If you know what you're doing you don't need AWS support.

We add support when we want to do something new, like MediaTailor + SSAI. At that point we're exploring and trying to get our heads around how things work. Once it works there's no real point in support.

That said, you need to ask your account manager about (1) discounts in exchange for spend commitments, and (2) technical assistance. In general we have a talk with our AM when we're doing something new, and they rope in SMEs from the various products for us.

We're not that big, and I haven't worked for large companies, and it's always been a mystery to me why people have problems dealing with AWS. I've always found them to be super responsive and easy to get ahold of. OTOH we actually know what we're doing technically.

Google Cloud, OTOH, is super fucked up. I mean seriously, I doubt anyone there has any idea WTF is happening or how anything works anymore. There's no real cohesion, or at least there wasn't the last time I was abused by GCP.

> That said, you need to ask your account manager about (1) discounts in exchange for spend commitments, and (2) technical assistance.

Depending what precisely you mean by the second one, you may not even need an AM/support for that.

They won't help me use the platform, but they will still address issues with the platform. If you run into bugs, things not behaving how they're documented, or something that simply isn't exposed/available to customers they seem to be pretty good about getting it resolved regardless of your spend or support level.

(On my personal account with minimal spend, no AM, and no support... I've had engineers from the relevant teams email me directly after submitting a ticket for issues.)

So yeah, "if you know what you're doing" you probably don't even need the paid-for support.

> If you know what you're doing you don't need AWS support.

Hard disagree. I have to engage with AWS support almost once every 6 months. A lot of them end up being bugs identified in their services. Premium support is extremely valuable when your production services are down and you need to get them back up asap.

I never got this in the comparison of aws between gcp. Why do people need direct support that much? In 8 years, I had to reach out to GCP maybe twice and still got an answer anyway.

We've only raised a handful of support cases with GCP the past 5 years, but we happened to raise one this week and they've put us onto a preview feature that solves the problem we were facing - I'm suddenly wondering if we should be trying our luck with support more often instead of figuring it out ourselves.

Preview, as in no sla [1] and they could cancel it or remove features any time in the future?

1: yes, I know the sla’s are usually a joke

I found two separate bugs in GCP products. One with gVisor where it would sometimes null-truncate large network packets (this was very hard to diagnose – why is my JSON full of null bytes?) and one where Cloud Run broke sudo sporadically (sudo in a FaaS is definitely niche, I had essentially containerized a very old application written by undergraduates).

Both times they were serious production bugs that took at least a week to resolve, though I only had the lowest tier of support package.

With my experience it’s the edge cases. The few times I had to reach out to AWS support were due to some weird edge case we couldn’t fix but AWS had to. And having a rep involved made it so much smoother.

I had to reach AWS because of a bug in Aurora last year; they replied quickly but said that they couldn't understand the bug...

if you need to bump a quota above the predetermined range of what googlers think is "normal" usage (which is far too low to run anything at scale)you have to talk to a human to negotiate the quota bump. why? because googlers in their infinite engineering wisdom use "gcp quotas" not as a cost optimization guardrail for customers benefit, but to inform google on when and how much metal they need to buy for their datacenter region you are running in.

I have to defend the Googlers here (I work at a different hyperscaler). Teams / services need to optimize their COGS. That means optimizing infrastructure cost. A lot of pay as you go service may not have any base cost to customers but they require some infrastructure to be provisioned. Without quotas you can have a lot of provisioned infrastructure which does not produce any revenue to even collectively break even. Just yesterday this a decision we evaluated again in my team. As a team we cannot afford an unlimited quota - both because of what that would do to our bottom line and because we can't necessarily obtain all the quotas we need ourselves to provision enough capacity for our dependencies. It's a difficult trade off requiring manual intervention.

i may have not emphasized enough how important quotas are for customers. quotas are very important guardrails for orgs that ensure that newly hired engineer who wants to "test drive the cloud" by running a BigQuery tutorial they found on github, gets stopped before they burn $10k in an afternoon. however, quotas on gcp are there for the benefits of google and not geared towards the customers. first there is an ever expanding tree of potential quotas complicating production rollouts of infra and second they are all set insanely low so even the smallest POC gets blocked. requesting a small increase routes the quota through software and auto-approval, requesting a quota that allows for a production workload? 3 weeks + help from your account rep, if google has blessed you the privilege of being allowed to talk with a human googler. no account rep you say, well your production workload can just wait around for google support to potentially acknowledge your existence.

One day, you will need support and when you do, you will realise why every week there's a top voted post on HN on someone complaining about not reaching Google Support

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As a counterpoint, I find our AWS super team to be a mix of 40% helpful, 40% “things we say are going over their head,” 20% attempting to upsell and expand our dependence. It’s nice that we have humans but I don’t think it’s a reason to choose it or not.

GCP’s architecture seems clearly better to me especially if you are looking to be global.

Every organization I’ve ever witnessed eventually ends up with some kind of struggle with AWS’ insane organizations and accounts nightmare.

GCP’s use of folders makes way more sense.

GCP having global VPCs is also potentially a huge benefit if you want your users to hit servers that are physically close to them. On AWS you have to architect your own solution with global accelerator which becomes even more insane if you need to cross accounts, which you’ll probably have to do eventually because of the aforementioned insanity of AWS account/organization best practices.

There's a very large gap between "seems" and reality. GCP is a huge PITA. It's not even stable to use, as the console is constantly unresponsive and buggy, the UX is insane, finding documentation is like being trapped in hell.

Know how you find all the permissions a single user in GCP has? You have to make 9+ API calls, then filter/merge all the results. They finally added a web tool to try and "discover" the permissions for a user... you sit there and watch it spin while it madly calls backend APIs to try to figure it out. Permissions for a single user can be assigned to users, groups, orgs, projects, folders, resources, (and more I forget), and there's inheritance to make it more complex. It can take all day to track down every single place the permissions could be set for a single user in a single hierarchical organization, or where something is blocking some permission. The complexity increases as you have more GCP projects, folders, orgs. But, of course, if you don't do all this, GCP will fight you every step of the way.

Compare that to AWS, where you just click a user, and you see what's assigned to it. They engineered it specifically so it wouldn't be a pain in the ass.

> Every organization I’ve ever witnessed eventually ends up with some kind of struggle with AWS’ insane organizations and accounts nightmare.

This was an issue in the early days, but it's well solved now with newer integrations/services. Follow their Well Architected Framework (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/wellarchitected/latest/framework...), ask customer support for advice, implement it. I'm not exaggerating when I say this is the best description of the best information systems engineering practice in the world, and it's achievable by startups. It just takes a long time to read. If you want to become an excellent systems engineer/engineering manager/CTO/etc, this is your bible. (Note: you have to read the entire thing, especially the appendixes; you can't skim it like StackOverflow)

I’m sure anyone willing to read through a 1,000 page document can make a well-architected GCP environment, too.

The problem is that no company I’ve ever worked for implemented the well architected framework with their AWS environment, and not one company will ever invest the time to make their environment match that level of quality.

I think what you describe with the web tool to discover user permissions sounds a lot like the AWS VPC Reachability Analyzer which I had to live in for quite a while because figuring out where my traffic was getting blocked between an endless array of AWS accounts and cross-region transit gateways was such a nightmare that wouldn’t exist with GCP global VPCs and project/folder based permissions.

I don’t like the GCP console, but I also wouldn’t consider a lot of the AWS console to be top tier software. Slow/buggy/inconsistent are words I would use with the AWS console. I can concede that AWS has better documentation, but I don’t think it’s a standout, either.

GCP's UI sure is dog slow. I once filled in that 'How would you rate...' prompt that sometimes appears about Instance Group management via the UI and it seems they later addressed the issue.

Similar to my experience with the two. We didn't have regular meetings with our GCP account manager, but they did help us and we had a technical support rep there we were in contact with sometimes. We rarely heard from anyone at AWS, and a friend had some horror stories of reporting security issues to AWS.

Architecturally I'd go with GCP in a heartbeat. Bigquery was also one of the biggest wins in my previous role. Completely changed out business for almost everyone, vs Redshift which cost us a lot of money to learn that it sucked.

You could say I'm biased as I work at Google (but not on any of this), but for me it was definitely the other way around, I joined Google in part because of the experience of using GCP and migrating AWS workloads to in.

> Every organization I’ve ever witnessed eventually ends up with some kind of struggle with AWS’ insane organizations and accounts nightmare.

What are these struggles? The product I work on uses AWS and we have ~5 accounts (I hear they used to be more TBF) but nowadays all the infrastructure is on one of them and the other are for some niche stuff (tech support?). I could see how going overboard with many accounts could be an issue, but I don't really see issues having everything on one account.

I like AWS, but Organizations was something that was retrofit onto the account model versus being part of the original design. GCP had second mover advantage in this area.

The way to automate provisioning of new AWS accounts requires you to engage with Control Tower in some way, like the author did with Account Factory for Terraform.

AWS makes the account model feel retrofit versus being part of the original design and 5 years later someone retrofit the organisations onto that before they they added 90% of the products into any square round hole they could find.

We were saved by the bell when they announced the increased account limit for S3 buckets (1M buckets, now, 1k I think before).

Just before they announced that I was working on creating org accounts specifically to contain S3 buckets and then permitting the primary app to use those accounts just for their bucket allocation.

AWS themselves recommend an account per developer, IIRC.

It's as you say, some policy or limitation might require lots of accounts and lots of accounts can be pretty challenging to manage.

I have to ask, because wow that's a lot of buckets, but what kind of activity requires breaching even a 1,000 bucket limit per account?

Simplistic tenant isolation and cost tracking :-)

I know there are other solutions to this particular problem but this model is extremely easy to reason about. When the application accesses tenant objects or delegates that access with pre-signed URLs it is doing so with ephemeral credentials that literally could not access the objects in another tenancy.

That and a similar DB isolation, allows most of our handlers to be very simple as far as tenant isolation goes.

5 accounts would be heaven if that could be my environment.

I have almost 40 AWS accounts on my login portal.

Two accounts per product, one for development environments and one for production environments, every new company acquisition has their own accounts, then we have accounts that solely exist to help traverse accounts or host other ops stuff.

Maybe you don’t see issues with everything in one account but my company would.

I don’t really think they’re following current best practices but that’s a political issue that I have no control over, and I think if you went back enough years you’d find that we followed AWS’ advice at the time.

Global VPCs are very nice but they feel like a single blast radius.

Whether or not your VPC can have subnets in multiple regions is entirely unrelated to security.

I meant failure blast radius. Having isolated regions is a core part of the AWS reliability design. AWS has had entire regions fail but these failure have always been isolated to a single region. Global VPCs must rely on globally connected routers that can all fail in ways AWS regional VPCs can't.

If you need global HA to the extent that you're worried about global VPC failure modes, you're going to have to spend a lot of effort to squeeze uptime to the max regardless of where you deploy.

Undersea cable failures are probably more likely than a google core networking failure.

In AWS a lot of "global" things are actually just hosted in us-east-1.

On the other hand, when they say something is in us-west-2 they mean it, so if another region has an outage your workloads aren't impacted unless your code is reaching out to that region.

Guessing that's similar on the other clouds.

I believe you’re likely misunderstanding Google’s architecture.

The routing isn’t centralized, it’s distributed. The VPCs are a logical abstraction, not a centralized dependency.

If you have a region/AZ going down in your global VPC, the other ones are still available.

I think it’s also not that much of an advantage for AWS to be able to say its outages are confined to a region. That doesn’t help you very much if their architecture makes architecting global services more difficult in the first place. You’re just playing region roulette hoping that your region isn’t affected. Outages frequently impact all/multiple AZs.

Regions and Availability Zones are very different things. Regions are much more isolated.

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The regret was about the cost of the premium support

> Picking Terraform over Cloudformation: Endorse

I, too, prefer McDonald's cheeseburgers to ground glass mixed with rusty nails. It's not so much that I love Terraform (spelled OpenTofu) as that it's far and away the least bad tool I've used in the space.

Terraform/openTofu is more than OK. The fact that you can use to to configure your Cisco products as well as AWS is honestly great for us. It's also a bit like ansible: if you don't manage it carefully and try to separate as much as possible early, it starts bloating, so you have to curate early.

Terragrunt is the only sane way to deploy terraform/openTofu in a professional environment though.

I curse at Terraform at least once a week, usually right after I’ve discovered some weird arbitrary limitation surprising misfeature. It’s still what I reach for when I need to manage a whole organization. And compared to CloudFormation, it’s the freaking Cistine Chapel of IaC.

I never understood this. Why not use Ansible instead, especially if you already use it? Doubly so when you have Cisco config to manage. The experience is generally so much better it's not comparable, and it is much easier to infer running state.

Ansible and terraform have some overlap, but they do tend to serve different purposes. The consequences of terraform having a state file should steer your decision.

However, I often find ansible modules to be confusing to use. Maybe with LLMs it's now easier to draft ansible roles and maintain them, but I always had agro whenever I needed to go to the docs for something I've done many times just because the modules are that much inconsistent.

Setting aside the turing completeness of them, in practice Ansible is a complete superset of Terraform. From experience, the only times you appreciate the state file is when you have uncontrolled changes, in which case you are in for a bad time anyway.

Ansible modules are trivial to write and more people should. Most are trivial in practice and just consists of a few underlying API calls. A dozen line snippet you fully understand is generally not a maintenance burden. A couple of thousand someone else wrote might be.

It's not the same purpose. Ansible is useful to configure your IAC, terraform to deploy and handle the state, which is very useful when you have multiple teams working on the same infrastructure.

What you can do if you _really_ like ansible is to use it to generate the terraform files (typically from Jinja2 template). In practice, i think Terragrunt is easier to use if you already have terraform modules. But if i was back at my first "real" job, where we had between 50 and 80 ansible modules (very short ones, it was really good, i've never saw an infrastructure that complex handled that concisely and easily), and if we had to use terraform, i would use ansible to generate terraform files 100%.

Because one's a language & tool for infrastructure as code, and the other's essentially a low-code ops scripting framework?

We can also use expect to configure Cisco routers and AWS infrastructure, doesn’t mean we should.

I've been very happy using cdk for interacting with aws. Much better than terraform and the like.

I second this. I do use some terraform, but for most of our stacks, CDK has been fantastic.

Any opinion on Pulumi?

Not an opinion on Pulumi specifically, but an opinion on using imperative programming languages for infrastructure configuration: don't do it. (This includes using things like CDKTF)

Infrastructure needs to be consistent, intuitive and reproducible. Imperative languages are too unconstrained. Particularly, they allow you to write code whose output is unpredictable (for example, it'd be easy to write code that creates a resources based on the current time of day...).

With infrastructure, you want predictability and reproducibility. You want to focus more on writing _what_ your infra should look like, less _how_ to get there.

> for example, it'd be easy to write code that creates a resources based on the current time of day

Some languages make that impossible to do, for example starlark.

The imperative trite just comes off as geriatric. There are better arguments you can use here which you have shared below. One of which I agree with.

Couldn't disagree more.

I have written both TF and then CDKTF extensively (!), and I am absolutely never going back to raw TF. TF vs CDKTF isn't declarative vs imperative, it's "anemic untyped slow feedback mess" vs "strong typesystem, expressive builtins and LSP". You can build things in CDKTF that are humanly intractable in raw TF and it requires far less discipline, not more, to keep it from becoming an unmaintainable mess. Having a typechecker for your providers is a "cannot unsee" experience. As is being able to use for loops and defining functions.

That being said, would I have preferred a CDKTF in Haskell, or a typed Nix dialect? Hell yes. CDKTF was awful, it was just the least bad thing around. Just like TF itself, in a way.

But I have little problems with HCL as a compilation target. Rich ecosystem and the abstractions seem sensible. Maybe that's Stockholm syndrome? Ironically, CDKTF has made me stop hating TF :)

Now that Hashicorp put the kibosh on CDKTF though, the question is: where next...

This does not match my experience. Terraform validate will check for types and you have great IDE support with refactor, find usages, resource documentation and everything else you might expect. You can of course build a monster of untyped dictionaries but that’s true for almost any language. Do you have examples of something else that the validation step does not find?

I never had this integrated with an editor but maybe I didn’t try hard enough. With CDKTF, a stock typescript IDE automatically has tab complete for every provider you want. That + being able to use functions, variables, loops, arrays, and structs for composition made it a completely different experience.

If those things all end up coming to terraform I’m all ears. For now it seemed more like a compilation target.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of writing exactly that. I want my IaC to be roughly as Turing complete as JSOJ. It’s sooo tempting to say “if only I could write this part with a for loop…” and down that path lies madness.

There are things I think Terraform could do to improve its declarative specs without violating the spirit. Yet, I still prefer it as-is to any imperative alternatives.

> Particularly, they allow you to write code whose output is unpredictable

Is that an easy mistake to make and a hard one to recover from, in your experience?

The way you have to bend over backwards in Terraform just to instantiate a thing multiple times based on some data really annoys me..

> Is that an easy mistake to make and a hard one to recover from, in your experience?

If you're alone in a codebase? Probably not.

In a company with many contributors of varying degrees of competence (from your new grad to your incompetent senior staff), yes.

In large repositories, without extremely diligent reviewers, it's impossible to prevent developers from creating the most convoluted anti-patterny spaghetti code, that will get copy/pasted ad nauseam across your codebase.

Terraform as a tool and HCL as a programming language leave a lot to be desire (in hindsight only, because, let's be honest, it's been a boon for automation), but their constrained nature makes it easier to reign in the zealous junior developer who just discovered OOP and insists on trying it everywhere...

> but their constrained nature makes it easier to reign in the zealous junior developer who just discovered OOP and insists on trying it everywhere...

I don't think this is true anymore. Junior devs of today seem to be black pilled on OOP.

Let my geriatric self rephrase this for you and make the point more obvious: "[...] who just discovered [insert latest design pattern trend of your choice] and insists on trying it everywhere"

Agreed, I'm fine with a declarative format in one file as long as I can control the imperative bits on which it depends.

yes. IaC is a misnomer. IaC implementations should have a spec (some kind of document) as the source of truth; not code.

I was the sole DevOps at my company for a long time, the team is now bigger. I used terraform for AWS and pulumi for K8S (terraform was too restrictive).

IMO pulumi is a huge gain of productivity when you know what you're doing. Cons: * It's plagued by bugs and the pulumi-kubernetes provider is not getting enough attention from the pulumi team (they're always working on compatibility with yet another language instead of focusing on one thing) * You end up with your very specific/personal codebase instead of having a generic/standard thing

Still, no regrets, I saved so much time thanks to pulumi!

With a bigger team: * Oboarding people takes more time * You end up with code quality issues. Most "DevOps" people aren't devs, sadly.

manage the infrastructure with infrastructure tools - manage the application with application tools. they are not the same thing. you do not need to change the oil on your cars seats...drivetrains and interiors are different worlds joining together to achieve the goal of moving humans around.

My opinion is there are not enough good software developers doing DevOps, and HCL is simple enough and can have pretty good guardrails on it. My biggest concern is people shooting themselves in the foot because the static analysis tools available for HCL don't work with Pulumi.

It’s an unfortunate truth that good software developers aren’t crazy enough to want to do it.

We used it at my last startup and I loved it but im a dev not devops guy

I loved reading code

Pulumi is superior to Terraform for my use cases. It's actually Infrastructure as Code. Terraform pretends to be, but uses a horrible config language that tries to skirt the line between programming language and config spec, and skirts it horribly. Reorganizing modules is a huge pain. I dreaded using Terraform and I spin things up and down in Pulumi all day. No contest.

Granted, I'm a programmer, have been for a long time, so using programming tools is a no brainer for me. If someone wants to manage infra but doesn't have programming skills, then learning the Terraform config language is a great idea. Just kidding, it's going to be just as confusing and obnoxious as learning the basic skills you need in python/js to get up and running with Pulumi.

I disagree with that. I think it’s satisfying to find a way to express my intent in HCL, and I don’t think I could do it as well without a strong programming background.

You can honestly do a lot of what people do with Terraform now just using Docker and Ansible. I'm surprised more people don't try to. Most clouds are supported, even private clouds and stuff like MAAS.

Yeah, but ansible is one of the nine circles of hell and its support for various AWS services beyond EC2 and S3 is near nonexistant.

I have mixed feelings about it. On my first startup, I used ansible to automate all of the manual workflows and server setup that we had done. Everything was just completely manual and in people's heads before, and translating it to ansible was a pain in the ass to say the least. I don't think it would have been any easier to translate it to something else though. It ended up working fine and we had a solid system that I could reset up our environment from scratch on a set of VPS provided by some terraform scripts. We were originally on digitalocean, and had to migrate to Azure because of acquisition BS.

For my current startup I ended up not going a direction where I needed ansible. I've now got everything in helm charts and deployable to K8S clusters, and packaged with Dockerfiles. Not really missing ansible, but not exactly in love with K8S either. It works well enough I guess.

> on a set of VPS provided by some terraform scripts

You ended up needing Terraform too for the infrastructure though. At that point why not just use Terraform?

Terraform was just for interacting with the cloud provider and spinning up the servers. Ansible was responsible for deploying all dependencies and getting the servers actually ready for use. Remember, none of this architecture was dockerized.

I had originally used Ansible to interact with the cloud provider and do the provisioning too, but someone on the corporate infrastructure team wanted to use terraform for that instead, so they did the migration.

I also have experience with using Terraform and Ansible like this. Once I realized that most of the work actually performing the setup beyond blank VM creation was in Ansible, I was much more interested in just using Ansible for everything.

CDK is far better than Terraform.

CDK is better when it works. Terraform has so many escape hatches it scales better with edge cases over time.

There are all sort of requirements that pops up, specially in times of downtime or testing infra migration in production etc. and it's much easier to manually edit the terraform states.

I don't see it that way. CDKs, Terraform, Pulumi all have their use cases and trade offs. I use a mix of them.

If you're any good at all at CDK, it's cdk8s is also a very solid clear & clean way to do kubernetes too. https://cdk8s.io/

I'm trying to make the decision for where to go with my home lab, and while Pulumi and Cue look neat, cdk8s seems so predictable & has such clear structure & form to it.

That's said the l1/l2/l3 distinction can be a brute to deal with. There's significant hidden complexity there.

I use cdk8s for my homelab and absolutely love it. 100% recommend.

Homelab CDKs: https://github.com/shepherdjerred/monorepo/tree/main/package...

Script I wrote to generate types from Helm charts: https://github.com/shepherdjerred/monorepo/tree/main/package...

This is the best post to HN in quite some time. Kudos to the detailed and structured break-down.

If the author had a Ko-Fi they would've just earned $50 USD from me.

I've been thinking of making the leap away from JIRA and I concur on RDS, Terraform for IAC, and FaaS whenever possible. Google support is non-existent and I only recommend GC for pure compute. I hear good things about Big Table, but I've never used in in production.

I disagree on Slack usage aside from the postmortem automation. Slack is just gonna' be messy no matter what policies are put in place.

Anecdotally I've actually had pretty good interactions with GCP including fast turn arounds on bugs that couldn't possibly affect many other customers.

Curious from you or others when FaaS isn’t possible? What criteria do you look for to decide or migrate off?

not possible: - workloads over 15m for lambda last time I checked, unsure on other providers - if you are looking to do anything stateful

possible but not ideal/inconveniences: - cold starts can hamper latency sensitive apps (language dependant + there are things you can do) - if you have consistent traffic its not very good value for money - if you value local debugging

Those are obvious. Sorry but I was interested in more nuance given the article.

What do you use if not slack? OPs advice is standard best practice. Respect peoples time by not expecting immediate response, and use team or function based channels as much as possible.

Other options are email of course, and what, teams for instant messages?

I’ve always that forums are much better suited to corporate communications than email or chat.

Organized by topics, must be threaded, and default to asynchronous communications. You can still opt in to notifications, and history is well organized and preserved.

The bullet points for using Slack basically describe email (and distribution lists).

It’s funny how we get an instant messaging platform and derive best practices that try to emulate a previous technology.

Btw, email is pretty instant.

If you work in a team, email is limited to the people you cc: while a convo in a slack channel can have people you didn't think of jump in* with information.

See the other point in the article about discouraging one on one private messages and encouraging public discussion. That is the main reason.

* half a day later or days later if you do true async, but that's fine.

I am neutral in this particular topic, so don’t think I’m defending or attacking or anything.

But aren’t mailling lists and distribution groups pretty ubiquitous?

But - from the people you actually want to get to contribute - emails come with an expectation of a well thought out text. IMs ... less so.

I've been working across time zones via IM and email since ... ICQ.

I'm probably biased by that but I consider email the place for questions lists and long statuses with request for comments, and for info that I want retained somewhere. While IM is a transient medium where you throw a quickie question or statement or whine every couple hours - and check what everyone else is whining about.

I have now been roped into talking more about a topic I have no interest in and am completely ambivalent to… :/

But clearly, thats cultural.

If you keep your eyes on the linux kernel mailing you’ll see a lot of (on topic) short and informal messages flying in all directions.

If you keep your eyes on the emails from big tech CEOs that sometimes appear in court documents; you’ll see that the way they use email is the same way that I’d use slack or an instant messenger.

Thats likely because its the tool they have available- we have IM tools that connect us to people we need (inside the company)- making email the only place for long form content, which means its only perceived as being for long form content.

But when people have to use something federated more often, it does seem like email is actually used this way.

I get it, email accomplishes a lot. But it "feels" like a place these days for one-off group chats, especially for people from different organizations. Realtime chat has its places and can also step in to that email role within a team. All my opinion, none too strongly held.

We use self-hosted Mattermost (team version, i.e. without limits but no enterprise features like LDAP). Fine for a small team (around 40 active users here) where you can script account actions via the API, probably not fine when users become a lot more, or you might need access to the compliance functions for audit purposes, etc.

For us the free version of Slack was insufficient, the commercial one too expensive, and anyway, given that it's a cloud-based system, it's not compliant with our internal rules for confidential information (unless we can get some specific agreement with them). On the side, there is a bit too much analytics/telemetry in the Slack client.

After listing dozens of infrastructure products/projects, "My general infrastructure advice is “less is better”.

That made me laugh. Yes I get that they probably didn't use all of these at the same time.

> less is better

Goes on to use Kubernetes and entire GitOps stacks to run a process. I truly do wonder what difficulty there is in transferring a binary to the system and writing a system unit file and being done with it.

Much of this matches my own experience. A few thoughts:

1. Cost tracking meetings with your finance team are useful, but for AWS and other services that support it I highly recommend setting billing alarms. The sooner you can know about runaway costs, the sooner you can do something about it.

2. Highly recommend PGAnalyze (https://pganalyze.com/) if you're running Postgres in your stack. It's really intuitive, and has proven itself invaluable many times when debugging issues.

3. Having used Notion for like 7 years now, I don't think I love it as much as I used to. I feel like the "complexity" of documents gets inflated by Notion and the number of tools it gives you, and the experience of just writing text in Notion isn't super smooth IMO.

4. +1 to moving off JIRA. We moved to Shortcut years ago, I know Linear is the new hotness now.

5. I would put Datadog as an "endorse". It's certainly expensive but I feel we get loads of value out of it since we leaned so heavily into it as a central platform.

There's a big difference between runaway costs and these costs over here, which are 10-20% higher than we think makes sense, especially compared to what we're spending over here. Let's spend some time figuring out how to reduce those costs. You should be doing both - belt and suspenders.

I think we're making a mistake by shoving all of this into the cloud rather than building tooling around local agents (worktrees, containers, as mentioned as "difficult" in the post). I think as an industry we just reach for cloud like our predecessors reached for IBM, without critical thought about what's actually the right tool for the job.

If you can manage docker containers in a cloud, you can manage them on your local. Plus you get direct access to your own containers, local filesystems and persistence, locally running processes, quick access for making environmental tweaks or manual changes in tandem with your agents, etc. Not to mention the cost savings.

The thing is that startups often don't have the time or capital to build a data center even though public cloud is just more expensive. If you're bootstrapping a business then it makes sense. My advice would be to always use only those features of the public cloud that you can also use on your private cloud, such as Kubernetes.

How do people think that's the only two options (AWS/cloud or build a datacenter)? It astounds me.

There's _so_ many providers of 'bare metal' dedicated servers - Hetzner and OVH come up a lot, but _before_ AWS there was ev1servers (anyone remember them?).

Because, a lot of money went into cloud marketing to convince us those are the only two options.

Tech is for all intents and purposes a planed economy (we are in the middle of the LLM five year plan comrade).

I am confused. I am not saying anything about building a datacenter

You also get all the risk of exposing your network and the cost of maintenance for your own datacenter.

> Startups don’t have the luxury of a DBA

but... you are spending so much on AWS and premium support... surely you can afford that

Self managing a database vs getting RDS isn't an easy choice. It depends on the scale, it depends on the industry... if you're locked in already in AWS, the price difference between the bare machines vs RDS usually aren't enough to pay for another person.

If you're starting everything from scratch, you might think that going to other providers (like Hetzner) is a good idea, and it may definitely be! But then you need to set up a Site2Site VPN because the second big customer of your B2B SaaS startup uses on-premises infrastructure and AWS has that out of the box, while you need an expert networking guy to do that the right way on Hetzner.

The last startup I was with that used AWS didn't spend anything on premium support. We were given startup credits to apply to our accounts, and they were always happy to hand out more to get us hooked.

Most startups don’t need a dba, just competent full stack/backend engineers. That being said, I understand why many startups prefer having a dba. Not exactly fun when your only staff engineer likes to just store everything in a jsonb column in Postgres.

They have a DBA in their infrastructure team, they just didn't bother to tell anyone and let them own it.

Sure we'll just spend 500k/yr for rds instead with networked disks lmao

[flagged]

>Since the database is used by everyone, it becomes cared for by no one. Startups don’t have the luxury of a DBA, and everything owned by no one is owned by infrastructure eventually.

This post was a great read.

Tangent to this, I've always found "best practices" to be a bit of a misnomer. In most cases in software and especially devops I have found it means "pay for this product that constrains the way that you do things so you don't shoot yourself in the foot". It's not really a "practice" if you're using a product that gives you one way to do something. That said my company uses a very similar tech stack and I would choose the same one if I was starting a company tomorrow, despite the fact that, as others have mentioned, it's a ton to keep in your head all at once.

> In most cases in software and especially devops I have found it means "pay for this product that constrains the way that you do things so you don't shoot yourself in the foot". It's not really a "practice" if you're using a product that gives you one way to do something.

The good thing about a lot of devops saas is that you're not paying anyone on staff to understand the problem domain and guide your team. The bad thing is that you're not paying anyone on staff to understand the problem domain and guide your team.

> "Like most tech debt, we didn’t make this decision, we just did not not make this decision."

This is an important point.

I agree with the sentiment, that most non-decisions are really implicit decisions in disguise. They have implications whether you thought about them up front or not. And if you need to revisit those non-decisions, it will cost you.

But I don't like calling this tech debt. The tech debt concept is about taking on debt explicitly, as in choosing the sub-optimal path on purpose to meet a deadline then promising a "payment plan" to remove the debt in the future. Tech debt implies that you've actually done your homework but picked door number 2 instead. A very explicit choice, and one where decision makers must have skin in the game.

A hurried, implicit choice has none of those characteristics - it's ignorance leading (inevitably?) to novel problems. That doesn't fit the debt metaphor at all. We need to distinguish tech debt from plain old sloppy decision making. Maybe management can even start taking responsibility for decisions instead of shrugging and saying "Tech debt, what can you do, amirite?"

The SQLite-per-customer pattern mentioned in the database subthread is underrated. I've been running a FastAPI app with a single SQLite database (WAL mode + FTS5) and the operational simplicity is genuinely life-changing compared to managing Postgres.

The key insight: for read-heavy workloads on a single machine, SQLite eliminates the network hop entirely. Response times drop to sub-15ms for full-text search queries. The tradeoff is write concurrency, but if your write volume is low (mine is ~20/day), it's a non-issue.

The one thing I'd add to the article: the biggest infrastructure regret I see is premature complexity. Running Postgres + Redis + a message queue when your app gets 100 requests/day is solving problems you don't have while creating problems you do (operational overhead, debugging distributed state, config drift between environments).

I have seen this post before. I don't know what exactly they do, but that's an extraordinary list of products to be managing. I hope they are making enough revenue to cover those outrageous costs.

> everything owned by no one is owned by infrastructure eventually

Whoa, now there is a truth bomb. I've seen this happen a bunch, but never put it this succinctly before.

> Multiple applications sharing a database [0]

> Regret

Thanks for this data point. I am currently trying to make this call, and I was still on the fence. This has tipped me to the separate db side.

Can anyone else share their experience with this decision?

[0] https://cep.dev/posts/every-infrastructure-decision-i-endors...

My advice: One code base and one database.

In my experience, it's easier to take schema out into a new DB in the off-chance it makes sense to do so.

The big place I'd disagree with this is when "your" data is actually customer data, and then you want 1 DB per customer whenever you can and SQLite is your BFF here. You have 1 DB for your stuff(accounting, whatever) and then 1 SQLite file per customer, that holds their data. Your customer wants a copy, you run .backup and send the file, easy peasy. They get pissed, rage quit and demand you delete all their data, easy!

> If you know what you're doing you don't need AWS support.

Some big companies have massive monolith code bases. This is not a generalization you could apply universally. There are a lot of other considerations. What kind of features are we talking about, what kind of I/o patterns are planned, what is the scale of data expected, etc.

I think you are responding to the wrong comment. I never said that.

Highly recommend reading Designing Data-Intensive Apps [1] and Monolith to Microservices [2]. I can't remember which (maybe both?) but I definitely took away the idea that if services share a DB, that DB's schema is now a public interface and becomes much more difficult to evolve with new requirements.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive-Applications... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Monolith-Microservices-Evolutionary-P...

The way I think of it is that a DB should only be accessed by a single replicaset in k8s. Only processes of identical code should share the DB. Everything else is through RPC interfaces.

This is how large scale systems are built, but the pattern makes less sense the smaller your footprint is.

The old school solution to this is have different schema in your database, and have views as the cross team public interface.

Coming from a world of acquisitions, I see almost every startup make the same decision of having a single database for everything. Can’t stress enough how big of a problem this becomes once you scale even a little bit. Migrations are expensive and time consuming. And for most teams, moving an application to a different db almost always becomes an urgent need, when they are least able to.

He doesn't want to manage the database the way he manages the rest of his infrastructure. All of his bullet points apply to other components as well, but he's absorbed the cost of managing them and assigning responsibilities.

- Crud accumulates in the [infrastructure thingie], and it’s unclear if it can be deleted.

- When there are performance issues, infrastructure (without deep product knowledge) has to debug the [infrastructure thingie] and figure out who to redirect to

- [infrastructure thingie] users can push bad code that does bad things to the [infrastructure thingie]. These bad things may PagerDuty alert the infrastructure team (since they own the [infrastructure thingie]). It feels bad to wake up one team for another team’s issue. With application owned [infrastructure thingies], the application team is the first responder.

The issue wasn't sharing a database, it was not being clear about who owns what.

Having multiple teams with one code base that has one database is fine. Every every line of code, table and column needs to be owned by exactly ONE team.

Ownership is the most important part of making an organization effective.

What's the DBMS? We moved in the other direction with postgres, merged multiple databases to simply have a schema per service/application instead. All the advantages with none of the disadvantages, imo. (We then had a single database per running test/dev environment, rather than multiple.) Of course, that's a pg thing, if you use MySQL for example it's not an option.

Yes, we are using postgres and my plan was to use separate schemas, if going the single db route.

The only thing that worried me is that one product might need SOC 2 sooner than another. I thought separate databases would give a smaller compliance surface to worry about. However, this will be my first time going through this process, so I am pretty uninformed here.

i think this is aligned with the author's choice. a separate schema is effectively a separate database (from a product eng perspective) with shared infra.

Accept that eventually you'll have multiple databases, so it makes sense to plan from that from the start and get in place the mechanisms for the databases to talk to each other.

the method for databases to talk to each other is via?

if we're not talking about replicas, we're talking about coordination at the app level, right?

Linked servers or FDWs

Separate! You lose the flexibility to move logic between the application and the database when the database is its own API.

Feels like a minor glimpse into what's involved in running tech companies these days. Sure this list could be much simpler, but then so would the scope of the company's offerings. So AI would offer enough accountability to replace all of this? Agents juggling million token contexts? It's kind of hard to wrap my head around.

Agents run tools, too. You can make an LLM count by the means of language processing, but it's much more efficient to let it run a Python script.

By the same token, it's more efficient to let an LLM operate all these tools (and more) than to force an LLM to keep all of that on its "mind", that is, context.

Agents are just not deterministic. You will see wierd things like in one thread an agent simply says it cannot access a CLI tool for whatever reason. You inspect the call, it worked just fine in another thread. You eventually shrug your shoulders and close the thread, pick up from another instead of having the agent flail around some obvious BS for hours and hours.

Just because they can run tools, doesn't mean they run them reliably. Running tools is not a be all and end all of the problem.

Amdahl's law is still in play when it comes to agents orchestrating entire business processes on their own.

[dead]

The part about account teams for AWS and GCP is very true in my experience. I could tell my AWS account team that I was hungry and they would offer to bring me a bagel in an hour. My GCP account team no-shows our cadence calls and somehow forgets the one question I ask them in the intervening time between our calls, which means each month I get to re-explain the issue as they pretend to escalate it again.

(2024)

past discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39313623

Thanks! Macroexpanded...

Almost every infrastructure decision I endorse or regret - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39313623 - Feb 2024 (626 comments)

thanks. Pretty sure this is where I saved it from originally.

> Regret: Not adopting an identity platform early on. I stuck with Google Workspace at the start...

I've worked with hundreds of customers to integrate IdP's with our application and Google Workspace was by far the worst of the big players (Entra ID, Okta, Ping). Its extremely inflexible for even the most basic SAML configuration. Stay far, far away.

And it's a horrible moat. I've gotten locked out of a Google Workspace permanently because the person who set it up left, used a personal email/phone to do it, and despite us owning/controlling the domain, Google wouldn't unlock admin access to the Workspace for us, they would only delete it. Unacceptable business risk.

Holy moly. this is nightmare fuel.

As a non infra guy I'll say this. I'm curious about Linear. At my own company I vibecoded my own project management app against the JIRA API because I can't stand our version of JIRA. It's too many clicks, too many things to remember and it's unintuitive.

If you have the power to do so, get rid of JIRA immediately. There are like 10 competitors that are all dramatically better.

I would personally recommend https://www.shortcut.com which is very well designed, and also made some really sensible improvements over the time that we used it.

I'll check it out. Unfortunately I don't have the power to do so

Baffling piece of software. It's a task manager and every time I use it I flail around for ages trying to figure out how to mark a task completed. No idea why people like it.

Because the customers are hordes of PMs and other types who can use as tool to be taskmaster over hordes of developers.

It's Amazon warehouse worker tracking software for developers and thus we hate it.

Been incredibly happy with the speed, featureset, and pace of new (good) features in Linear. Our team has adopted it quite happily and it gets a ton of good use. Can fully recommend.

As everyone knows JIRA sucks but some perfect implementation of it exists in the ether at some company you will never work at :)

Theses days AI in doc, spec and production lifecycle means we need AI first ticket tooling - haven’t used Linear but I suspect that works far better with AI then JIRA

I actually know people that like JIRA believe it or not, both software engineers

There is a lot of "stuff" for liking to keep it simple. Great article though!

I'll switch in Cloudflare Zero Trust for Okta simply for the fact that Cloudflare Access and Tunnels + An identity provider (we use M365) give you so much value (and it's free upto 50 users). It is even better if you are already running DNS on Cloudflare, you can securely deploy access-controlled apps on the internet without too much of a hassle and management. And with the recent addition for Infrastructure for SSH you can securely extend SSH access just as seamlessly.

I disagree on Kubernetes versus ECS. For me, the reasons to use ECS are not having to pay for a control plane, and not having to keep up with the Kubernetes upgrade treadmill.

This. k8s is primarily resume driven development in most software shops. Hardly any product or service really needs its complexity.

To replace Kubernetes, you inevitably have to reinvent Kubernetes. By the time you build in canaries, blue/green deployments, and rolling updates with precise availability controls, you've just built a bespoke version of k8s. I'll take the industry standard over a homegrown orchestration tool any day.

We've used ECS back when we were on AWS, and now GCE.

We didn't have to invent any homegrown orchestration tool. Our infra is hundreds of VMs across 4 regions.

Can you give an example of what you needed to do?

Really? What deploys your code now? I'm SRE, walk me through high level. How do I roll back?

It used be Google Deployment Manager but that's dead soon so terraform.

To roll back you tell GCE to use the previous image. It does all the rolling over for you.

Our deployment process looks like this:

- Jenkins: build the code to debian packages hosted on JFrog

- Jenkins: build a machine image with ansible and packer

- Jenkins: deploy the new image either to test or prod.

Test deployments create a new Instance Group that isn't automatically attached to any load balancer. You do that manually once you've confirmed everything has started ok.

ECS deployments. Automatically rolls back on failure. Not sexy but it works reliably.

The amount of tools and systems here that work because of k8s is signficiant. K8s is a control plane and an integration plane.

I wish luck to the imo fools chasing the "you may not need it" logic. The vacuum that attitude creates in its wake demands many many many complex & gnarly home-cooked solutions.

Can you? Sure, absolutely! But you are doing that on your own, glueing it all together every step of the way. There's no other glue layer anywhere remotely as integrative, that can universally bind to so much. The value is astronomical, imho.

I initially read this wrong as "Almost every infrastructure decision I make I regret after 4 years", and I nodded my head in agreement.

I've been working mostly at startups most of my career (for Sydney Australia values of "start up" which mostly means "small and new or new-ish business using technology", not the Silicon Valley VC money powered moonshot crapshoot meaning). Two of those roles (including the one I'm in now) have been longer that a decade.

And it's pretty much true that almost all infrastructure (and architecture) decisions are things that 4-5 years later become regrets. Some standouts from 30 years:

I didn't choose Macromind/Macromedia Director in '94 but that was someone else's decision I regretted 5 years later.

I shouldn't have chosen to run a web business on ISP web hosting and Perl4 in '95 (yay /cgi-bin).

I shouldn't have chosen globally colocated desktop pc linux machines and MySQL in '98/99 (although I got a lot of work trips and airline miles out of that).

I shouldn't have chosen Python2 in 2007, or even worse Angular2 in 2011.

I _probably_ shouldn't have chosen Arch Linux (and a custom/bastardised Pacman repo) for a hardware startup in 2013.

I didn't choose Groovy on Grails in 2014 but I regretted being recruited into being responsible for it by 2018 or so.

I shouldn't have chosen Java/MySQL in 2019 (or at least I should have kept a much tighter leash on the backend team and their enterprise architecture astronaut).

The other perspective on all those decisions though, each of them allowed a business to do the things they needed to take money off customers (I know I know, that's not the VC startup way...) Although I regretted each of those later, even in retrospect I think I made decent pragmatic choices at the time. And at this stage of my career I've become happy enough knowing that every decision is probably going to have regrets over a 4 or 5 year timeframe, but that most projects never last long enough for you to get there - either the business doesn't pass out and closes the project down, or a major ground up rewrite happens for reasons often unrelated to 5 year old infrastructure or architecture choices.

The Bottlerocket issues really surprise me - not an experience I've shared even with heavy use. I use EKS with Bottlerocket + managed addons + Karpenter, and our security team is super happy that _nobody_ has access to the underlying nodes. Immutable OS is a key selling point, and Brupop "just works" to keep everything up to date without any input. Patching nodes is something I haven't had to think about in almost a year.

Interested to know what's changed (if anything) in the two years since this was written.

for one thing the ingress nginx is retiring[1], so they're probably revsiting alternatives, maybe even the service meshes for the new gateway api.

1: https://kubernetes.io/blog/2026/01/29/ingress-nginx-statemen...

Honestly, this is a reasonable itemization of experience with individual tools, but this reads like a recipe for Company Cake instead of a case-by-case statement of need, selection, and then evaluation. Cargo culting continues to wrap its tendrils around the industry and try to drag it into the depths of mediocrity, and this largely reads to me like a primer for how to saddle yourself with endless SaaS bills. I recognize that every situation has its nuances, but I think approaching running a company from "what tools do you use" is pretty much the biggest possible example of ignoring that maxim.

> There are no great FaaS options for running GPU workloads

Knative on k8s works well for us, there's some oddities about it but in general does the job

> Multiple applications sharing a database

This is a classic. I'd say that for every company, big or small, ends up taking the #1 spot on technical debt.

Martin Fowler called this (anti-)pattern an "integration database" and discouraged it since at least 2004[1]

[1]: https://martinfowler.com/bliki/IntegrationDatabase.html

Love it. Excellent reasoning for subjective decisions that don’t knock the product or solution itself as much as, “not what we specifically needed, and that’s okay”.

Bookmarked for my own infrastructure transformations. Honestly, if Okta could spit out a container or appliance that replaces on-prem ADDCs for LDAP, GPOs, and Kerberos, I’d give them all the money. They’re just so good.

I would love to read more about the pros and cons of using a single database, if anyone has pointers to articles

SRE here who has dealt with this before.

Everything in article is excellent point but other big point is schema changes become extremely difficult because you have unknown applications possibly relying on that schema.

It's also at certain point, the database becomes absolutely massive and you will need teams of DBAs care and feeding it.

This is true. But at the same time people need to understand that most companies will never hit that certain point. It's a matter of if, not when.

Everyone tries to plan for a world where they've become one of the hyperscalers. Better to optimize for the much more likely scenarios.

We were not a hyperscaler, we were boring company that you never heard of.

Database is still 40TB with 3200 stored procedures.

I've dealt with postgres DBs larger than that in size though with no stored procedures and have never run into such problems. Except for a single table in a single DB at one stop, and that was a special case of people being extra stupid.

Granted, DB size isn't the best metric to be using here in terms of performance, but it's the one you used.

Not only will you need a team of DBAs caring for it, but you'll never be able to hire them.

No organization I have seen prioritizes a DBA's requirements, concerns, or approach. They certainly don't pay them enough to deal with that bullshit, so I was out.

Martin Fowler:

https://www.enterpriseintegrationpatterns.com/patterns/messa...

The things that impact the most are locking/blocking, data duplication (ghosting due to race conditions), and poor performance. The best advice is RTFM the documentation for your database; yes, it is a lot to digest that is why DBAs exist. Most of these foot guns are due to poor architecture. You have to imagine multiple users/processes are literally trying to write to the same record at the same time; when you realize this, a single table with simple key-values is completely inadequate.

Pro: every team probably needs user information, so don’t duplicate it in weird ways with uncertain consistency.

Con: it’s sadly likely that no one on your staff knows a damn thing about how an RDBMS works, and is seemingly incapable of reading documentation, so you’re gonna run into footguns faster. To be fair, this will also happen with isolated DBs, and will then be much more effort to rein in.

They are very similar to the pros and cons of having a monorepo. It encourages information sharing and cross-linkage between related teams. This is simultaneously its biggest pro and its biggest con.

Thanks. I've been meaning to write one of these for a long time, but you went into detail in a very effective, organized way.

I also reached a lot of similar decisions and challenges, even where we differ (ECS vs EKS) I completely understand your conclusions.

You will never agree 100% with someone else when it comes to decisions like this, but clearly there is a lot of history behind these decisions and they are a great starting point for conversations internally I think.

I see you regret Datadog but there's no alternative - did you end up homebrewing metrics, or are you just living with their insane pricing model? In my experience they suck but not enough to leave.

VictoriaMetrics stack. Better, cheaper, faster queries, more k8s native, etc. Easy to run with budget saved from not being on Datadog + attracts smart and observability minded engineers to your team.

Not author but Prometheus is perfectly acceptable alternative if you don't want to go whole Otel route.

Prometheus + … what? Datadog is a visualization platform, prometheus is a data gathering infrastructure.

Grafana is most common one.

Currently going through leaving DD at work. Many potential options, many companies trying to break in. The one that calls to me spiritually is: throw it all in Clickhouse (hosted Clickhouse is shockingly cheap) with a hosted HyperDX (logs and metrics UI) instance in front of it. HyperDX has its issues, but it's shocking how cheap it is to toss a couple hundred TB of logs/metrics into Clickhouse per month (compared to the kings ransom DD charges). And you can just query the raw rows, which really comes in handy for understanding some in-the-weeds metrics questions.

LGTM stack?

"No alternative" isn't quite right anymore, though I understand the feeling. The real problem with Datadog isn't the pricing - it's that their per-host model incentivizes you to care about infrastructure topology rather than user-facing behavior. You end up with 10,000 dashboards and still can't answer "is checkout broken right now?"

The open source stack has gotten genuinely viable: Prometheus/VictoriaMetrics for metrics, Grafana for viz, and OpenTelemetry as the collection layer means you're not locked into anyone's agent. The gap used to be in correlation - connecting a metric spike to a trace to a log line - but that's narrowed significantly.

The actual hard part of leaving DD isn't technical, it's organizational. DD becomes load-bearing for on-call runbooks, alert routing, and team muscle memory. Migration is less "swap the backend" and more "retrain your incident response."

If you're evaluating: the question I'd ask isn't "which vendor has the best dashboards" but "can I get from alert to root cause in under 5 minutes with this tool?" That's the metric that actually correlates with MTTR, and it's where most monitoring setups (including expensive ones) fail.

> Not using Function as a Service(FaaS) more

FaaS is almost certainly a mistake. I get the appeal from an accountant's perspective, but from a debugging and development perspective it's really fucking awful compared to using a traditional VM. Getting at logs in something like azure functions is a great example of this.

I pushed really hard for FaaS until I had to support it. It's the worst kind of trap. I still get sweaty thinking about some of the issues we had with it.

What's the issue with logging? I would have expected stdout/stderr to get automatically transferred to the providers managed logging solution (e.g. cloudwatch).

Though I never really understood the appeal of FaaS over something like Google-Cloud-Run.

As a developer who spent a couple months developing a microservice using aws lambda functions:

it SUCKS. There's no interactive debugging. Deploy for a minute or 5 depending on the changes, then trigger the lambda, wait another 5 minutes for all the logs to show up. Then proceed with printf/stack trace debugging.

For reasons that I forgot, locally running the lambda code on my dev box was not applicable. Locally deploying the cloud environment neither.

I wasn't around for the era but I imagine it's like working on an ancient mainframe with long compile times and a very slow printer.

I've witnessed developers editing Lambda code live in the AWS console. It is extremely painful to watch.

Lol exactly

Cloud Run is one service where GCP really shines. It is very flexible: handles services and long running background jobs, less annoying run time limitations like you find in Lambda.

> Getting at logs in something like azure functions is a great example of this.

This is the least of the problems I've experienced with Azure Functions. You'd have to try very hard to NOT end up with useful logs in Application Insights if you use any of the standard Functions project templates. I'm wondering how this went wrong for you?

Thanks for sharing, really helpful to see your thinking. I haven't fully embraced FaaS myself but never regretted it either.

Curious to hear more about Renovate vs Dependabot. Is it complicated to debug _why_ it's making a choice to upgrade from A to B? Working on a tool to do app-specific breaking change analysis so winning trust and being transparent about what is happening is top of mind.

When were you using quay.io? In the pre-CoreOS years, CoreOS years (2014-2018), or the Red Hat years?

Is it common practice for a startup to have ALL of those SaaS subscriptions?

It seems excessive and expensive. Is this what most startups are doing these days?

I feel so many of these. LOL @ GitHub endorse-ish, more -ish every day now. Overall though seems like a pretty good hit rate.

Surprised to see datadog as a regret - it is expensive but it's been enormously useful for us. Though we don't run kubernetes, so perhaps my baseline of expensive is wrong.

> There are no great FaaS options for running GPU workloads

modal.com exists now

(2024)

Just FYI article is two years old

Nice but how do those services combine with each others ? How do you combine notion, slack, your git hosting, linear and your CI/CD ? If there are only URLs between each others it’s hard to link all the work together

> There are no great FaaS options for running GPU workloads

I love modal. I think they got FaaS for GPU exactly right, both in terms of their SDK and the abstractions/infra they provide.

Does anyone have thoughts on how bunny.net compares to Netlify? I've been getting sick of them (and their pricing) recently...

My measurement of quality going in was how far I need to scroll to see EKS. Very high quality.

All in on AWS and using GitOps with TF instead of much more feature rich CDK...

This just feels like an article by someone who took an AWS course and promotes the company line

Great post. I even wouldn’t mind more details, especially about datadog, or as others pointed out, the kind of contradiction with aws support.

Using GCP gives me the same feeling as vibe-coded source code. Technically works but deeply unsettling. Unless GCP is somehow saving you boatloads of cash, AWS is much better.

RDS is a very quick way to expand your bill, followed by EC2, followed by S3. RDS for production is great, but you should avoid the bizarre HN trope of "Postgres for everything" with RDS. It makes your database unnecessarily larger which expands your bill. Use it strategically and your cost will remain low while also being very stable and easy to manage. You may still end up DIYing backups. Aurora Serverless v2 is another useful way to reduce bill. If you want to do custom fancy SQL/host/volume things, RDS Custom may enable it.

I'm starting to think Elasticache is a code smell. I see teams adopt it when they literally don't know why they're using it. Similar to the "Postgres for everything" people, they're often wasteful, causing extra cost and introducing more complexity for no benefit. If you decide to use Elasticache, Valkey Serverless is the cheapest option.

Always use ECR in AWS. Even if you have some enterprise artifact manager with container support... run your prod container pulls with ECR. Do not enable container scanning, it just increases your bill, nobody ever looks at the scan results.

I no longer endorse using GitHub Actions except for non-business-critical stuff. I was bullish early on with their Actions ecosystem, but the whole thing is a mess now, from the UX to the docs to the features and stability. I use it for my OSS projects but that's it. Most managed CI/CD sucks. Use Drone.io for free if you're small, use WoodpeckerCI otherwise.

Buying an IP block is a complicated and fraught thing (it may not seem like it, but eventually it is). Buy reserved IPs from AWS, keep them as long as you want, you never have to deal with strange outages from an RIR not getting the correct contact updated in the correct amount of time or some foolishness.

He mentions K8s, and it really is useful, but as a staging and dev environment. For production you run into the risk of insane complexity exploding, and the constant death march of upgrades and compatibility issues from the 12 month EOL; I would not recommend even managed K8s for prod. But for staging/dev, it's fantastic. Give your devs their own namespace (or virtual cluster, ideally) and they can go hog wild deploying infrastructure and testing apps in a protected private environment. You can spin up and down things much easier than typical AWS infra (no need for terraform, just use Helm) with less risk, and with horizontal autoscaling that means it's easier to save money. Compare to the difficulty of least-privilege in AWS IAM to allow experiments; you're constantly risking blowing up real infra.

Helm is a perfectly acceptable way to quickly install K8s components, big libraries of apps out there on https://artifacthub.io/. A big advantage is its atomic rollouts which makes simple deploy/rollback a breeze. But ExternalSecrets is one of the most over-complicated annoying garbage projects I've ever dealt with. It's useful, but I will fight hard to avoid it in future. There are multiple ways to use it with arcane syntax, yet it actually lacks some useful functionality. I spent way too much time trying to get it to do some basic things, and troubleshooting it is difficult. Beware.

I don't see a lot of architectural advice, which is strange. You should start your startup out using all the AWS well-architected framework that could possibly apply to your current startup. That means things like 1) multiple AWS accounts (the more the better) with a management account & security account, 2) identity center SSO, no IAM users for humans, 3) reserved CIDRs for VPCs, 4) transit gateway between accounts, 5) hard-split between stage & prod, 6) openvpn or wireguard proxy on each VPC to get into private networks, 7) tagging and naming standards and everything you build gets the tags, 8) put in management account policies and cloudtrail to enforce limitations on all the accounts, to do things like add default protections and auditing. If you're thinking "well my startup doesn't need that" - only if your startup dies will you not need it, and it will be an absolute nightmare to do it later (ever changed the wheels on a moving bus before?). And if you plan on working for more than one startup in your life, doing it once early on means it's easier the second time. Finally if you think "well that will take too long!", we have AI now, just ask it to do the thing and it'll do it for you.

> Do not enable container scanning, it just increases your bill, nobody ever looks at the scan results.

God I wish that were true. Unfortunately, ECR scanning is often cheaper and easier to start consuming than buying $giant_enterprise_scanner_du_jour, and plenty of people consider free/OSS scanners insufficient.

Stupid self inflicted problems to be sure, but far from “nobody uses ECR scanning”.

> There are no great FaaS options for running GPU workloads, which is why we could never go fully FaaS.

modal.com???

I’m CTO for a startup that was recently acquired for $100M+ I agree with everything in this post apart from Go because I’m just not a big fan of the language.

given enough time you may regret every single one of them.

Pagerduty: They haven't yet hit that point where PD doubles the prices for them. Or they don't have everyone on the platform, it will be their next Datadog (too expensive)

I agree, 2-3x pricing because you have more people always felt like a cash grab, similar to an SSO Tax. We also have a lot of complex Pagerduty configurations and their APIs are painful. Why do timestamps drift, templates get updated but don't show drift, and identifiers are not the same between UI and API. I regret implementing within Terraform and would rather just let teams manage their own on-call sadly.

PagerDuty's pricing trajectory is following the exact same playbook as Datadog. Start cheap enough that teams adopt it without finance approval, then jack up per-seat pricing once it's embedded in every runbook and escalation policy.

The insidious part with on-call tooling specifically is that switching costs are higher than almost any other category. Your escalation chains, schedules, integrations with monitoring, incident templates, post-mortem workflows - it all becomes organizational muscle memory. Migrating monitoring backends is a weekend project compared to migrating on-call routing.

What I've seen work: teams that treat on-call routing as a thin layer rather than a platform. If your schedules live in something portable (even a YAML file synced to whatever tool) and your alert routing is OpenTelemetry-native, swapping the actual dispatch tool becomes manageable. The teams that get locked in are the ones who build their entire incident process inside PD's UI.

100%

Anyone implementing PD paging into their company: I highly advise you add a template/interface on top of PD. This will make swapping out later much easier.

Very clever. Our team is small enough right now for this to not be an issue, but I've ran into this issue previously and this feels like a far more practical design to avoid lockin.

Its insane how many SaaS solutions are needed piecemeal to run a company these days - just listing everything out like that made it apparent

And it's just infra, tech stack comes after it.

Sure, let's take advices about infrastructure from that guy wo needs a tool to automate postmortems.

Can you expand? Have you never worked at a tech company that has incidents?

In which world does a large tech company exist without problems, if so how big, how many customers etc?

I've just look out of curiosity on Appsmith, as the author endorsed this tool as some admin panel builder. I had to double check the name, as right now this is, surprise, surprise, AI powered application builder...

I used to use Replit for educational purposes, to be able to create simple programs in any language and share them with others (teachers, students). That was really useful.

Now Replit is a frontend to some AI chat that is supposed to write software for me.

Is this jumping into AI bandwagon everywhere a new trend? Is this really needed? Is this really profitable?

Just about anyone who aspires to raise capital in the current market is making themselves out to be AI. Give it a couple of years and we'll be onto the next craze. By that time I should have migrated my application off the blockchain into the metaverse.

> “This EC2 instance type running 24/7 at full load is way less expensive than a Lambda running”.

For the same amount of memory they should cost _nearly_ identical. Run the numbers. They're not significantly different services. Aside from this you do NOT pay for IPv4 when using Lambda, you do on EC2, and so Lambda is almost always less expensive.

I'm curious how that plays out when you factor in other infrastructure components like DB and load balancers.

On Lambda, load balancing is handled out of the box but you may need to introduce things like connection poolers for the DB you could have gotten away without on EC2

Think it also depends if you're CPU or memory constrained. Lambda seemed more expensive for CPU heavy workloads since you're stuck with certain CPU:mem ratios and there's more flexibility on EC2 instance types

I wouldn't know. I use DynamoDB almost exclusively. These simply aren't considerations that occur with that product.

It is true that it can be hard to size workloads into lambdas rather unusual CPU configuration; however, the real beauty of lambda is, you can just fork several parallel copies of your function. We can sometimes fork up to 250 instances just for a single "job."

If you're in the same boat we are where your workloads parallelize easily then Lambda has been incredibly cost effective for this use case.

Jesus, this piece reads like it's from 2024. Oh, it's from 2024.

Infra guys doing DBA is a nightmare in my experience (usually clueless and it gets loved less than more sexy parts of infra). Devs too

Hire a DBA ASAP. They need to reign in also the laziness of all other developers when designing and interacting with the DB. The horrors a dev can create in the DB can take years to undo

I'm a little afraid to say it but LLMs are getting quite good at query optimization. They can also read slow query logs and use extensions like pg_stat_statements

Doesn't necessarily prevent a terrible schema but it's become a lot easier to fix abomination queries at least

As an infra person I couldn't agree more. Get an expert in there. DB's are their own universe of complexity and deserve dedicated attention.

lol the ingress-nginx endorsement aged well

Previous discussion (626 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39313623

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